High-five, SaltyDawg.

@dawg: "Should people of all faiths be forced to listen to a prayer of a single faith in the only graduation ceremony for ALL graduates of a TAXPAYER FUNDED school?

how boot have a graduate (or minister) from each faith offer a prayer...

isnt the God of the muslims, jews, christians One and the same...and a prayer from a hindu, etal, etc, would be educational...as would thoughts from an atheist and an agnostic.

America was founded on Christian principles, hence Christian prayer. A prayer is a prayer and people of all faiths should be happy to be blessed in any language or denomination.

Well, now, there's the rub. The venue charges for its use. Often that's an hourly rate and, yes, it's paid for by the school itself, I do believe. That would be your tax dollars at work. If those organizing the event respected every religion represented in the audience (or do you suggest ignoring the attendees there to support the student? New deprivation of rights!), and allotted them, perhaps, two minutes each to address their own deity, non-deity, specific form of deity (and no, prayers from Christians do not equate with worship from other religions regardless of commonalities -- prayer is NOT one of them), and then we're working on a serious Oscar-form of over-run with more time on the billable clock for the venue and those who are offended when (yes, Irmo High School has Satanist-wannabes in their student body) the prayers don't suit their version of... nice can of worms. And all of it still illegal, since if it is presented on the taxpayer's dime on behalf of a public school, then every one of them can claim as sanctioning by that school, which is a state-supported institution. Illegal. Wrong. Not right. Against the law. It doesn't change it, any more than an overwhelming vote by the graduating students (and at IHS that's a VERY likely possibility) to smoke marijuana at the ceremony would make THAT a legal part of the day.

How about majority rules? The minority keeps getting their way! How about take a poll and I am willing to bet the majority are Christians and welcome and embrace prayer. I assure you when those children were being slaughtered at Columbine, My God, My God was heard over and over again throughout the entire school.

@Ginger: That is highly offensive, to invoke Columbine. Not that you or I were there, but I would imagine that every student, regardless of their religious status or beliefs, may have used phrases that are embedded in the language without a specific target audience in mind. Your unattractive suggestion that dying students only begged to YOUR God makes me wonder how that prayer thing worked out for those of your religion who did not survive, and how much comfort that gave their parents and other loved ones. A truly ugly reference; and very unChristian of you at that. Perhaps you might want to reconsider worshiping a deity that permits such evil to be effected simply to provide you with a platform for justifying prayer in school?
@ Glen: Prayer is not the point. YOUR rights are at stake here. There will come a time when you will NOT be in the majority and you will find yourself helpless and hopeless to have any representation, despite knowing WITHOUT A DOUBT that the majority is wrong.
Please... both of you pray. You need to, according to your inability to accept and tolerate others, and it should be to a kind and forgiving deity who can see past the cruelty that you are espousing here with your closed minds and lack of tolerance.

@ Ginger: "How about majority rules?" This is not a country where majority rules. The founding principle of this nation is that everyone has equal standing, and that a minority has the same rights as a majority. *THAT'S WHAT OUR COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED ON.* That's why people, including my family over 300 years ago, came here to begin with - to get away from a majority that told minorities they had to do what the majority did. Very, very unAmerican to suggest otherwise in your "majority rules" statement.

@Pamela Hawver: "...America was founded on Christian principles, hence Christian prayer. A prayer is a prayer and people of all faiths should be happy to be blessed in any language or denomination

"people of all faiths should be happy to be blessed in any language or denomination"...tend to agree and assume you would you be happy to be blessed with sikhism prayers...

America was founded on 'love your neighbor as yourself' principles (NOT specifically christian). the founders (think jay the exception) were diests...eg;

1. Thomas Paine: "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
2. On his deathbed, Washington uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.
3. see jefferson's bible...

"deism is a religious philosophy which holds that reason and observation of the natural world, without the need for organized religion, can determine that the universe is the product of an intelligent creator..."

@hera: "Well, now, there's the rub

to have all regions present was kinda a facetious suggestion...

hera has pointed out why it wont happen in my life time...probably not in God's (whoever and whatever color She/He is), in SC...

I say that we call out the faiths of every graduate....create a graduation for each and offer it to all. I bet the Christians would fill the stadiums and you would be able to have the rest in much smaller venues. Then all would be happy. I home school my kids, so that my children don't have to be around this silliness. I will say that I work in a school and for the record, God is the only way that I have been able to find an in with at least 80% of my rough kids. They seem to calm and think rationally. So you complain about the religion in my school? If so, don't complain when my house doesn't get broken into by these same kids due to my relationship between God and my students.

CORRECTION

re: to have all regions present was kinda a facetious suggestion...[stanley s]

should read:

to have all RELIGIONS [vice regions] present [lead/say a prayer] was kinda a facetious suggestion...

It was the "student" that said the prayer NOT an employee of the district. Is that not 'freedom of speech'?

@Sami, the school knew about and scheduled the prayer.

Now, the student body DID vote on having the prayer. Then it gets into whether you think the 1st and 14th amendment of the constitution protects a person FROM religion. The supreme court has consistently said yes they do for the last 50 years or so.

I thought of telling you how asinine you sound with your I am offended about the Columbine comment, but I sense that you are a hardliner with your non-belief and I would be wasting my time. To say that they don't believe.....they were just calling words or phrases that they knew.....I did see a phrase that fits all of your posts....It says" Does you a$$ get jealous of the amount of sh!t that comes out of your mouth?" Yup....definitely appropriate!

Oh, Just a Believer, you're right... I should exploit the horror of that day to support MY religious beliefs. That's a real sign of compassion and decent Christian behavior. I'm not particularly religious, but I recognize the miracle of children and I also appreciate the strength that my friends find in their religious beliefs. It still irks me when/if they shove them down my throat, since they make all rational (and often sane) discussion completely impossible. I've also been known to say, "Oh my god" at times that require mindless response; obviously you know all about that sort of thing. This forum provides proof that anybody can have an opinion. It doesn't mean it's the definitive one. I suppose you think it's okay that those children were killed as proof of your supreme being's inability to get the message of school-based evil across any other way? Lovely. And quite cretinous of you (since you're pathetic enough to prefer personal insults addressed to people you don't know). Enjoy your intimacy with your imaginary friend; that's hardly the issue here -- just remember that you don't have any real answers, just suppositions and sheep-like theory, and you certainly don't have the right to over-ride MY rights with your nonsense.

For the record, that would be "comes out of" my fingertips. I don't shove my beliefs down anybody's throat by spitting in their face. Big difference between "Believer" and "Zealot," by the way, although neither one seems very well-behaved in a public forum. Then again, I've never understood the word "Christian" to be synonymous with "class," so I'm not surprised.

Hera, I was not exploiting the horror of the Columbine tragedy- I was simply repeating what actually happened that day. You might actually want to take the time and read one of the prayers a student wrote about that horrible day. Sadly, your views of God and religion twisted it into something else. I'm still not quite sure where you were going with your mindless response.

It is impossible to have any "conversation" with a closed mind. You are very welcome to your prayers, your superstitions, your rituals and your desperate need for a father figure to tell you right from wrong. I have no issue with that whatsoever and neither does America, as long as EVERY person in this country is entitled to their OWN interpretation of those things, their need and their desire to apply them, NOT JUST YOU. That would be the crux of this, not you imposing your interpretation of Christianity on anybody else or suggesting that everybody becomes a Christian when they may be facing imminent death. Many of today's youth are capable of independent critical thinking skills, but your indoctrination was very thorough, wasn't it? I have more respect for the victims of Columbine than to use them to prove a paltry point of nebulous value that is completely off-topic to the forum. It was offensive because it was twisted to suit your purposes and had nothing to do with the legality of prayer in taxpayer-funded schools. But then... what would rules or the law mean to someone who defines their Christianity by insulting anyone who does not agree with them? Typical... Please note that my rejoinders are merely reactive. Several of you have managed to entirely miss the point of the discussion and turn it into a soapbox from which you can tell us all what a good Christian you are even as you behave -- and write -- to the contrary.

Once again Hera try reading some of the survivor stories from Columbine and perhaps you will understand.

Hera, the students at Irmo voted on this prior to the graduation. JoSCh is right and it is a 1st and 14th Amendment issue.

You daughter is probably tired of your mushroom tea drinking radical taliban nonsense being shoved down her throat. Who gives you tha authority to stand in judgement of other people or their religon???? Certainly no well respected Christain would ever take the loony stance that you Ginger take you are a dellusion extremist and I am happy their are so few of you to interfer with my freedom.

Mimi, sorry to inform you that my daughter is quite brilliant and actually volunteered with the young Republicans due to the fact that the liberal agenda was being shoved down her throat. Fortunately for her she got a full ride to college and grad school but what about the students paying for this liberal leftist agenda?

What liberal agenda would that be Ginger??? The one that the reddess state in the nation bestows on you???? Do tell in your fantasy land how the heck Liberal agenda survive in a state that is run through and through by Republicans. I will wait for your spin

And I'm tired of the right constantly trying to stunt America's growth. Wake up--this isn't the 19th century. Civilization evolves. If it didn't, your daughter (who I'm sure is wonderful) wouldn't have been able to attend college and grad school, unless it was for teaching or nursing. The fact is that in this day and age, especially in a school as diverse as Irmo, subjecting all students and families to a Christian prayer is inappropriate.

This country was NOT founded on majority rules; it was explicitly structured to protect minorities. And "Christian principles" are much different than "Christianity". I'm not Christian but I exhibit "Christian principles" all the time. It's too bad so many Christians can't say the same thing.

I find it amusing when people label anything that doesn't perpetuate their status as privileged members of society to be part of the "liberal agenda". No, it's called wanting equal status.

Ths "America, love it or leave it" mentality drives me CRAZY. Guess what--we DO love America. Enough to see it evolve as we think it should. If you don't like THIS America, take your own advice and put in your own ear plugs. It'll work wonderfully to muffle the "liberal agenda" you think is so terrible. Or even better, take your own advice and YOU move to Europe--where religious discrimination is indoctrinated into most national governments. Or Eastern Europe, where right-wingers rule with an iron fist. I hear Belarus is pretty in the Spring.

sorry, Glenn - my very religious family (Mennonites, actually) first came here in 1702 to get away from being told they would have to listen to others' prayers and interpretations of scripture. We are NOT founded on any church's beliefs - as our government itself noted in a 1792 treaty ("the United States is not a Christian nation"). And if you don't like that, maybe its you who needs to move (before your American ancestors roll over in their graves).

Actually Glen, the Vatican is the only "Christian nation" in the world today. The United States is secular, you can tell because "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." That means in this country you're welcome to be a non-Christian. Sorry if not imposing our beliefs on others offends you, you are welcome to move to a non-secular country!!!

This is exactly the problem - so many people have such a skewed perception of the founding of our nation and it's principles. While the majority of US citizens do classify themselves as Christians, our country is NOT a theocracy. That is a pretty huge distinction that I personally hate to see so many Americans get so horribly wrong. The very reason you can complain about this issue at all is because we are a free country that does not dictate it's citizens beliefs. Sad.

Wow, I suggest you read the Constitution, specifically Amendment I.

@Glenn Pound: "...We are a Christian nation...you are welcome to move to a non-Christian country!!!"

oh/my the old N-word 'go back to africa 'argument...it's still around...tho it adds nothing to any discussion.

'we are a christian nation...in words only. NOT in deeds...'all hat and no cattle,' as they say in TX...we are hypocrites...who support failed, un-christian, greed is good, principles of the 1%-ers...

The supreme court disagrees with you, prayer in public school IS illegal.

Caution: facts inside -> http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/90-1014.ZS.html

I do agree with you on one thing, you don't know fact from fiction. I disagree regarding everyone else though, there are plenty of rational and reasonable people who try to find truth, as difficult as it is in the current vitriolic political environment where any number of lies are touted as the truth. You call them liberals, but most of them are actually moderates.

I never said prayer was illegal; it's a personal right. You yourself can pray any time you want to, even right there at the graduation, too. It is not the role of a public entity to tell people which prayer they have to have, though. Because there is a complete void in church and state, then using a particular church's prayer at the graduation sort of violates that void. Anyone can pray anytime anywhere with no problem - to be led into one particular faith's prayer, though, is not appropriate at a public school graduation.

Then when you get home or on your way home Ginger stop and pray all you like. Trying to shove your version down someone throat doesn't make you correct. So continue telling your version of lies and maybe they will actually become true if you pray hard and often enough.

Ginger Rogers
The ACLU stands for the opposite of what you believe it does. It was set up and continues to to defend and preserve the individual rights and liberties that the Constitution and laws of the United States guarantee everyone in this country. While the go into court to oppose the government sponsorship of religion (such as placing a cross above everyone's tombstone in a public cemetery) they also go into court to oppose governments infringement on the freedom of religion (such as defending a Christian's right to have a cross on their own tombstone). They have a long history of defending groups such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, for example.

Jesus also had something to say about praying in public (Matthew 6:5). He told his followers not to go out and pray loudly in public, calling those that do so hypocrites.

Mimi, I never try to shove my version down anyone's throat. I believe that prayer should be allowed. It's really quite simple. I will pray for you tonight because you seem to be very angry and hostile person!

No thanks Ginger I don't need you praying to who ever you pray to, I practice the word of jesus, I am not sure whos words you practice you could be praying to satan for all I know sure sound like it.

Who is stopping you from praying???? Or is it you need a platform other than your church to make a spectacle out of worshipping???

But no one is prohibiting prayer, and not in this particular case at the school, either. What's being contested is that prayer of a particular faith is included in the program of this state-operated school. There is quite some variation in faiths, even Christian faiths, too - go look at the Catholic 10 commandments, then the Lutheran, then the Methodist. Anyone who wants to pray at that event *can* - no one is saying anyone can't. What's being contested is, including it on the schedule as an official part of the program implies that this public school is only complying with a particular faith. As a Christian, I don't think it's right for the school to do.

“Go look at the Catholic 10 commandments, then the Lutheran, then the Methodist.”

Don’t forget about the Jews, they were theirs first.

That is a good point and better yet read them, Exodus 20:1-17 and be mindful of which version of the Bible you read (about 30 in English) and you will have a difficult time separating them into the Decalogue recited by children at Sunday School and inscribed on some public edifices.

The versions we are all familiar with is actually the second set. When Moses came down from the mount with the first, he saw the golden calf and was so enraged by the reversion to idolatry of by the Israelites that he threw them to the ground where they were broke into illegible pieces. Moses’s remembrance of that set is recounted in Deuteronomy 5:6-21 which is very different from the second set he brought back.

Sorry for the diversion but the point I’m trying to elaborate on is that there is so much variety in belief systems that if it is paramount for your child to grow up in a particular religious environment, there is the option of parochial schools.

@JohnH: " ...if it is paramount for your child to grow up in a particular religious environment, there is the option of parochial schools"

the option maybe not a good idea...children grow up to be yuppies or religious nuts...one who chose public education say:

'After spending early years at what she calls the "ivy-covered" Westridge School, a private, all-girls academy, [Molly] Munger, at 14, successfully petitioned her parents [dad a partner of buffett] to let her go to Pasadena [CA] public schools. She said that experience "changed me forever."'

Munger, 63-year-old attorney, is a longtime champion for civil rights and education policy issues...

Also in conclusion of your interpertation of the constitution as it applies to religion, first of all you completly miss the part about seperation of church and state then you complete ignore that while no one is stopping anyone from praying they are not responsible to supply the venue for them to do so. You see people like Ginger doesn't just want to pray she wants everybody to pray to her choice of gods or not. There lies the problem. You can't choose the winners and losers.

To Stanley again;

A yuppie nut can be a reference to the buckeye, the official nut of Ohio.

@John H: "...A yuppie nut can be a reference to the buckeye..."

not my intent and dont think you are what i had in mind in referring to a yuppie nut...my intent was to suggest kids need exposure to all cultures...it's what the USA is about.

and it is why i believe the draft or compulsory 2 yrs in the military may be a good idea...rich kids should be in afghanistan too...some (the special ones) are.

my short time in the navy and working for an international engineering construction firm were invaluable in appreciating all groups and curing my racism.

i was a racist (and didn't know it) for too many younger years...

re: Southern Ohio

when people pick up on my accent and ask where i'm from...i tell 'em south boston...some actually believe it.

To Stanley; It was all in good jest. Fell kind of flat. South Bahston. That's a good one.

@JohnH: "...It was all in good jest. Fell kind of flat. South Bahston. That's a good one."

it was taken in jest, and gave me the opportunity to run off at the mouth...

the south bahston line would be good if i could switch accents... also use i'm from south america...

@Ginger Rogers: "...by the way that would be one God- not Gods"

BTW that One God, as mentioned and as you and all know, is the God of the muslims, jews and christians...

hope one day i understand why He/She confused us by giving three different true words to three different cultures...thus creating the crusades and pogroms...not to mention the current bs in mid east...

I attended several graduations this season and all of them opened with a prayer to a Christian God. We all just sat there, didn’t think a thing about it. I can’t recall one word that was said during the invocation. If the graduation was opened with the Sh’ma followed up by the pledge of allegiance spoken in Parsi, there would have been a huge public outcry followed by an aftermath of legal action against the school leaders. I probably would be on board with that because the contrast was so evident.

it would be great to have gov haley give the invocation at CofC, USC, clemson,wherever, with a sikh prayer and the benediction by franklin graham...

Little doubt that would lead to violence against the minority. Majority rules, right Ginger Rogers? I somehow don't think many would put in ear plugs and look away...

What is up with this "Crusade, this Jihad, this religious WAR against American Freedom? Don't you believe in America? The 14th amendment provides equal protection for all citizens, especially the minority. The first amendment provides freedom of religion and freedom FROM state sponsored religion. The supreme court has ruled on this and were in favor of America for the last 50 years, why aren't you?

Democracy has it's roots in Christian beliefs? Do you not believe that the Greeks existed in the 7th century BC?

Your heritage was sustenance farming and hunting only a few hundred years ago. Get off the internet, it's a sure road to demise.

Barry, JESUS does not want you to pray in school. Read the Bible, MAtt Ch 6!!!
Are you going to say Christ was unclear about what he wanted us to do?!?

@cookie washington: "...when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray..."

would be interesting to hear this explained by one who advocates prayer in schools...especially one who interprets the Bible literally...

BTW organized religions did/do much to destroy the tenets of Christianity and religions in general...ie, love thy neighbor as thyself...do unto others...

the crusades, the inquisition, pogroms, salem witch trials, prayer in schools, gay marriage, etcetc...

OK so prayer in schools not on par with the inquisition...but if tenets of most religions were followed there would be no dissension over prayer in schools or on gay marriages...ie,

Christians would realize how they would feel if haley gave a Sikh prayer at their graduation...

Should they be free to chose whether to graduate with students of another race? Should they vote on whether gay kids should be banned to another ceremony?
The majority don't get the authority to violate the rights of minorities. Sorry, you fail at understanding constitutional rights.

The guy who is suing the school district says he felt he was excluded from the graduation process. Keep up Alice. Before you say "majority rule" allow me to remind you of the 14th amendment.

Most of us call that place "church."

@alice bea: "...where two or three are gathered in my name there i am also..."

this has nothing to do with Jesus' instruction re prayer...but maybe a good lesson here (matthew)...eg;

'Wherefore, if thy hand or thy foot causeth thee to sin, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into everlasting fire.'

feel sure those who take the Bible literally will follow this instruction...the muslims (at least in saudi) do cut off the hand of a thief...